Thoughts on EMP protection
 

I read 'Lights Out' a few weeks ago and was subsequently looking up EMP Protection on Google.

I found two sites with absolutely contradictory advice on this:

http://www.aussurvivalist.com/nuclear/empprotection.htm

http://www.endtimesreport.com/EMP.html

Does anyone have any thoughts about this? I incline to believe that the article on Aus Survivalist is the correct one myself.

Also I found it pretty unrealistic in 'Lights Out' the way they kept running to the car parts store for replacement parts for the fried vehicles. What sort of parts should be stored for a simple vehicle with a mind to EMP damage? An alternator I would assume, solid state ignition unit, if there is one, fuses, relays? What else? What should be stored for a tractor or a diesel vehicle?

Maxine

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

I'm no auto mechanic, but I think the newer the vehicle is that you have, the more it's going to be affected by an EMP. All of the computer run components would be fried I suppose. An older 70's or before type carbureted vehicle would be the best bet in that scenario. The simpler the better. In the book "Patriots" They all had older Broncos to bug out in WTSHTF.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Almost anything electronic would be fair game. You could not afford enough parts to fix a late model car hit by an EMP pulse.

Best bet is a well built faraday cage. That will stop an EMP pulse if that is your concern.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Actually the voltage regulator part of the alternator, if a separate piece.

You'd need a vehicle from mid to late 70's back.....most later ones have one or more "black boxes" that would also have to be replace to run.

The ideal vehicle to me would be a carbureted pre-75 Volkswagen ( beetle, bus, etc ) and store an extra voltage regulator, a condenser and points for the distributor, an ignition coil, and some fuses in a faraday cage....like an old ammo box...and kept in the basement.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

A cheap Faraday box is a metal garbage can. It needs to be grounded to work right though. Don't ground it to the electric system of your house. It should really be its own separate ground the same way lightening rods are.

As for cars anything with points and condensers, old fashioned regulators will be fine. Anything with solid state or computor technology is most definitely at risk. Diesel is uneffected unless it uses computor controled electronics. Most new stuff does.

If you park your vehicles in a shipping container that is well grounded they would be fine.

Oh, and all the parts at the parts store will most likely be fried too. I don't think it matters if they are on the car or not. However if that building is a steel building and the steel is all grounded it will provide some protection.

sb

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Thanks for the responses.

Squirrel Bait this to ground or not to ground issue confuses me. One of the links I posted says you must ground the Faraday cage. The other one says that you should not do so.

The metal garbage can idea is a good one. Though I was unaware, until I read those articles that you need to make sure the radio, or whatever it is you are putting in the metal box, is wrapped up in cardboard, bubble wrap or whatever so as not to touch the mental box. Obvious really, when you think about it.

A further thing I am wondering about is whether a surge protector would make any difference to say a computer that was plugged in at the time of an EMP.

Seems to be a complex topic.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

After the "crash" a computer will be about as useful as a brother in law with an Escalade

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

I'd disagree......think of the library you could have stored.....

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Ammo box..
It doesn't need to be grounded but you must have the materials,
"free floating" inside...
Wrap them in bubble wrap or fiberfill batting, any lofty nonconductive
material will do. Keep the items, you want to protect, from coming
in contact or arcing from the metal container.

Gounding can't hurt... burying would be the best!

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

It really depends on how strong the EMP is. For Military applications they use a steel structure not unlike a shipping container and it is grounded all around with numerous grounding rods. I believe some of them are double walled. I'm fairly sure most of us will not see an EMP this strong.

As the EMP hits the structure the energy will be transfered to the steel box and surround it as it passes. The box will create a safe pocket. If there is too much energy it will create a weaker EMP inside, though. However, if it is grounded, that energy will be pulled to ground and bled off, preventing the field from forming inside. Computer hard drives are delicate so I opted to ground it.

If you do decide to ground it do not ground it to the house system or your plumbing. The electrical grid is huge and it will soak up massive amounts of energy which will come right into your house. Perhaps that is why one website said not to ground it, I don't know.

Yes, whatever is in the "box" should be insulated from it. Cardboard would be fine, or plastic(like a bucket), or glass, a blanket etc

An ammo can is excellent, down in the basement is good. If it's buried even better as technically it's grounded.

I have mine in the bedroom and grounded it in the basement. My basement is damp and I didn't want electronics down there. Every month or so I back up my computer on an external hard drive, stick it back in it's box and then back into the garbage can.

This is my knowledge of EMP's. There are several good sites out there that give much more detailed info.

From what I understand it takes a thermonuclear device, or hydrogen type weapon to make a really strong EMP. A fission device like was used in WWII makes one too but it is much smaller. I wouldn't expect a terrorist weapon to be of the much higher technology required for the large EMP.


sb

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

As I understand it...

The faraday cage would have to be grounded, and thats only going to stop beta (electrons) You need to provide a shorter path to ground, or the cage will just pass the electrons, same as a copper wire.

The magetic part is a problem, as there is no protection that I know of. You might try to adapt something to make your shielding look like a secondary coil of a transformer.

Ever notice a microwave door? I wonder if you could buy rolls of that and use it in your house. Grounding it should block out all the dangerous beta.

If you're getting gamma from the blast (like in an airborne nuclear scenario) you might as well kiss your @ss goodbye.

----

There really isn't a practical method of protecting a car, the circuitry will either work or not work at all. The metal in your car is going to react to the magnet part of the pulse.

Maybe a smart move would be a mountain bike with a basket, or saddle bags if they make such a thing.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Also keep in mind, EMP need adequate amount of metal to conduct it's effect to electronics. If I recall, any metal beyond three feet in length would absorb and conduct an EMP wave which is why things like the electrical grid and communications systems are vulnerable because you are talking about hundreds/thousands of miles of metal/copper cable.

Only devices connected to "the grid" would mostly be impacted. If you had a computer or other electronics not plugged in to electrical, phone or cable would likely not be damaged by EMP.

Which is why parts sitting on shelves in an auto store (like in Lights Out) would likely not be damaged. Due to the nature of EMP most cars today would not be damaged, which is why I wouldn't be too concerned about it.

If you really want to protect devices, simply totally unplug your electronics from the grid both electrical and communications.

However the Faraday cage concept obviously works. The poor man's version is to take a large cardboard box, line the inside with overlapping aluminum foil and then place another smaller box inside to insulate your contents from the foil.

Dave

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Thanks for the further replies.

Flash, a mountain bike probably IS the real answer! But one thing I did like about 'Lights Out' was the issue of the tractor. I think the novel is unrealistic in many ways. But what I think is so true about it is that if people are going to survive anything like this, who are not already at a 'crash stead' getting the available land under cultivation ASAP is vital.

I live in a semi rural neighbourhood and between us we have a lot of land that could be put under the plough. Unfortunately an elderly farmer died a few years back and his land has since been subdivided and is no longer in use. Though it could be put back. My neighbour and friend is also a retired farmer.

My neighbour sold his 1948 tractor a couple of years back:banghead:

My neighbour's truck is the oldest vehicle we have on this road, I think. Though it is possible someone else might have a 'classic truck' that is older. But it is clearly not old enough. I will have to ask him again the exact year, but I think it is something like a 1983. He told me the other day that it had a solid state ignition and he has a spare for that. I told him to put it in a cake tin in his cellar and wrap it in bubble wrap.

I had a Land Rover Defender, 300 Tdi, which the UK armed forces now use as the 'Wolf', a modified version of that Land Rover. Bloody Canadian rules and regs would not let me bring it here from the UK. Though I still think that would have been too complicated to get through an EMP. When I was forced to sell the Tdi since I could not move it to Canada, I got a very plain, older ex military Land Rover to bring over here in its place. Long story, it turned out not to be what it was represented to be, though it was a great vehicle, but my friend in the UK wrote it off while he was 'looking after' it for me. (Yes, we still speak! And it has to be said that a woman driver was the other party in the incredible smash he got involved in, and she was the one in the wrong, it is just lucky no one died.)

I have a very useful, 12 foot deep stone cellar in my house,which is very old, but it is damp, though I am trying to address that, and also there are MILES of electrical wires down there. The guy who owned this house before me was an electrician. He rewired this place and then some. He put in TONS of extra wiring just in case.

I was also wanting to put up an antenna for a Short Wave radio on the roof, but I incline to wonder about the wisdom of that. Both concerning lightning strikes and any possible EMP.Lightning strikes of course being far more likely!

I know that any small nuke set off by a terrorist or the like would not be likely to send an EMP that would reach me where I am - back of beyond. But what if the Chinese decide to 'have a go' post economic collapse? An EMP space burst would be IDEAL, I would have thought.

On the other hand the economic collapse could likely bring the grid to a halt all one its own, no need for an EMP, but people would still have transport - or sort of. A few would, who had been prudent enough to save fuel and spares parts.

Anyway, unthinkable, really. I went down reading the nuclear/fall out avenues of this before Xmas and thought 'Oh Lord, this is just TOO much' and dismissed it. Keef's dreams bother me, and I have a friend who had similar dreams all the time in her youth. Her son is having a rerun now of what she dreamt, though she has carefully avoided any talk to him of nuclear war, which she grew up on back in the 60's.

Spooky.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Dave, if unplugging is enough, why the need for a faraday cage at all? Would a computer plugged in but sitting inside a cage be okay? I guess the whole plugged in thing has me confused, now.

Things like battery-powerd clocks, watches, PCMs/ECUs in vehicles, etc. would be okay, since they're not plugged into the power grid? Something doesn't seem quite right here...

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Whatcha need is a really BIG tin foil hat.
with more seriousness, note that ANTENNAs need to be disconnected and grounded, Antenna JACK should have a shorting plug screwed in tight, and if it is not obvious, old vacuum tube type equipment will still be functioning after a pulse destroys all the solid state gear. the reason is that tube gear runs on high voltage, and can handle tremendous voltage surges that will decimate transisitors and IC devices.
Especially fragile are all the newest modern low power portable gear, such as cell phones, laptops, ipods, blackberries, etc which all employ MOSFET devices for the low power draw, and thus longer battery life. As i understand it, these devices have very low junction impedance, and will be destroyed even by smaller impulses, as in nearby lightning strikes.
So hit the garage sales for old fashioned vintage radio gear, pack it away in ammo cans in the garage, and remember to line your hat with aluminum foil, so your brains dont scramble..

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

You are absolutely right, any small electronic devices in most cases will be two small to properly conduct the EMP wavelength. Think of EMP as RF (radio frequency) if you don't have the proper antenna size it will not receive and conduct the signal.

In your example above, you will introduce the EMP effect inside the Faraday's cage if you had a device inside the cage plugged in; the equivalent of running an antenna to a radio in a basement to the outside to receive radio signal but in this case it would receive the EMP pulse. By connecting the contents of a faraday's cage to the grid you essentially negate the protection. Once the EMP blast is absorbed by metal of the proper length (at least 30 inches) it then can conduct the EMP pulse to any connected device which is why anything connected to the grid will likely fry unless protected.

In most cases this is correct. Unless you had a radio or device with wire or metal (antenna) at least 30 inches or more in length attached to it that could receive and conduct the EMP pulse (unless your electronics are with 8 or 10 feet of metal capable of conducting EMP).

Actually there are ways to EMP harden electronics that have to be grid attached without Faraday's cages

Dave

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Realistically is there evidence of EMP from Nuclear bomb or even an EMP bomb that is real.

What I mean is are there more than theories that would give one reason to plan and build around EMP threat.

I read about an EMP test where a truck ran through the EMP test area and the vehicle stopped but was restarted seconds later.

I do not have a good feel for how valid EMP danger is.

E-A

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Here is a clue:
EMP will not affect the Amish lifestyle much.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

If its real it would ruin Electric-Amish's day:aetsch:

E-A

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Maxime,

By the way, I read and enjoyed Lights Out quite a bit.

Here is a link to the PDF if anyone else wants to read it: http://www.cxp.com/username/lightsout-current.pdf

Keep in mind, a lot of people have the wrong impression of EMP. I would guarantee EMP would essentially destroy the ENTIRE electrical grid and any metal/copper based communications systems. What happens in the story is plausible since the break down occurs more so on the basis of the grid being down long-term and not so much on cars and electronic devices being out of commission.

You have to realize most industry relies on power grids being functional to operate. Without the grid you do not refine fuel, produce most consumables, pump water or sewage, power logistics systems, etc.

Just living in Florida and dealing with all of the hurricane damage we receive to our electric grid, most of our repairs come in replacing damaged transformers. Just between the Gulf coast states we have in several occasions depleted replacements transformer inventories throughout the nation. Mind you we probably are only replacing 1% of transformers in gulf rim, so if you have an EMP blast knock out the majority of transformers in the nation we are talking about a serious amount of time to normalize the grid if it is even worth salvaging.

Dave

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Actually, a thermonuclear weapon (fusion) won't create a large EMP at all. Nuclear weapons are much more efficient.

Edit: The reason multistage weapons (all fusion devices need a fission reaction first - and some have tritium injections - thus the multistage tag) are very inefficient EMP producers is because the first stage pre-ionizes the environment around the weapon, which makes it conductive, thus opposing the Compton effect.

The second link contains multiple documents that will teach anyone anything they want to know about EMPs. Chapter 2 is what you want for EMP environment information. It's 20 pages, but great info.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp/toc.htm

Page 29 and on of this doc: http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mctl98-2/p2sec06.pdf is useful.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Good question! Most of the predictions about EMP effects are based upon very limited results created from the high-altitude Starfish Prime events, launched from Johnston Island in the early 1960's. These low megaton yield detonations caused damage to the electric power grid in Hawaii. However, I don't think there is real evidence for fears that an EMP attack will burn out every transistor in the US, as shown in "The Day After".

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

I'd agree with everything you said, but -

If you look at circuit boards you see lots of traces - it makes a great high frequency antenna. Chips and such are protected from over voltage by diodes built within each chip, but they have both a voltage (.7) and a reaction time (varies)

When you get a hi frequency spike of 10000 volts it takes a bit for chip level protection to kick in. How much power depends on how close you are to the blast, and as you point out, how much of the signal you can pick up.

Unplugging is great advice. A grounding cage and isolation for equipment helps too.

If we are talking about protecting a car, which is a large hunk of metal, its probably not going to work, because the grounding cage isn't going to stop the magnetic part of the pulse.

Hmm Silver is diamagnetic isn't it? Maybe a tin foil, but using silver could achieve both? I don't know properties on diamagnetic material, other than some vague memories.

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Hi Dave,

I enjoyed the book too, if that is the correct word for such a gruelling and alarming read. Thanks for posting the link.

The consequences of an attack on the grid would be truly appalling.

I live in Nova Scotia and Halifax got smacked by a hurricane a few years ago. It took more than a week to get power back for people there and really it was quite a localized problem and not an enormous hurricane. The only good thing about that was it inclined to make people more prepared, hardly anyone was prepared for it. But since mains water never went off in Halifax during the hurricane I do not think a lot of people in town realize how vulnerable they could be in that department if a more wide spread event took place. People in the surrounding rural areas did sit up and take note as when the power went out none of them could pump their wells.

Maxine

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

I agree with your points. Ultimately, by my estimation the results of an EMP blast will likely produce highly variable results in the magnitude that devices literally sitting next to each other may have completely different impacts. In the spectrum of RF type signals it is so hard to predict from which direction it will come, what will conduct it and ultimately where your circuit damaging concentrations of energy will be.

All I know is, that I absolutely do not look forward to the potential prospect of an EMP blast. Yikes.

Dave

Re: Thoughts on EMP protection
 

Your welcome Maxine.

I have to believe hurricane prone areas have an advantage when it comes to preparedness. Most of us gulf rim, and Atlantic coast folks have had to deal with at least one hurricane in our life. I can't remember a season we didn't lose power for an extended period of time (upwards to a week or more). There is absolutely nothing worse than the heat and humidity that follows in the path of a hurricane or tropical storm making power outages even more difficult since there is no air conditioning. Most homes built since the late 1970s in Florida are built with the concept you will always have an operational AC so the houses don't breath like the older style Florida homes that would maintain upper 70s lower 80s temperatures inside the home without AC.

When I finally locate my homestead, I plan to build a house that could be tolerable without power; not an easy thing in Florida.

Dave